My friend Steve Camp is on one of his tirades again. As usual, Steve his aggressive, pointed, sometimes bombastic, and always thoughtful. Apparent throughout his articles and essays is a desire to bring Biblical principles to bear in the real world of life and ministry. I have never doubted Steve's passion for the sufficiency and authority of Scripture. This was apparent to me within minutes of picking him up at the airport the first time we met. I greatly appreciate his desire for a pure form of Christianity. Steve provides much fodder for debate among my friends and I.
In a recent post at Camp on This, regarding seminaries, Steve decries the fact the seminaries have assumed the responsiblities for training men for ministry and the local church has stood by to let this happen. I have not fully formed my thoughts on this, but have long held many of the same concerns. Please read the his post and share your comments to enlighten me. After I muse on it a bit more, I will share some of my thoughts.
By the way, this is exactly why I do a Blog. It has nothing to do with the fact that I think I have something of exceeding value to apss on to you. It has everything to do with interaction and mutual enlightenment. So please comment and let's encourage one another as iron sharpening iron.
Grace to You!
7 comments:
I just had a peek at your comment over at Mr. Pyromaniac. It seems to me I've been here before, but I can't remember how I go here on the prior occasion!
I like the links you have in your sidebar. I've only recently become acquainted with 9 Marks Ministries; I just finished reading Dr. Dever's book, and found it an excellent read.
Dave,
As someone who planning to go to Seminary (Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) and who is currently being trained in the local church for ministry(I serve as Pastoral Intern working 55+ hours, my role is very similar to that of an Associate) I had alot of thoughts about Steve's article.
Steve's article is just way too extreme. He highlights all the negatives of Seminaries and makes it sound like Seminaries have no value. I was actually pretty irritated with article. He made some good points but due any lack of mentioning the positive benefits of Seminaries made an extremely lopsided extremist article.
He made such broad generalizations about Seminaries that it was an unfair. He sets up a false dichotomy. Saying or at least implying that because of the state of Seminaries you can not get an education while getting real ministry experience from those in the field and that training should be exclusively in the Church. Most people in good Biblical Seminaries are involved in local churches! By looking at Steve's article you would assume that people what happens are students are becoming Monks with isolations from the local church and then they are spit back out after 4 years by the Seminary with an academic education but with no experience! Go to the website of any good Seminary and look at the Pastoral Track. They all require field experience. You would not know it from Steve’ article! Guess what ? The field experience is also supervised! http://www.sbts.edu/academics/degrees/theology/mdiv_pastoral_studies.php. Steve’s article would have you believe that Seminaries are spitting eager, dorky, academic types into to a poor unsuspecting church and are destroying them with their lack of competence since they are only book smart!
Steve’s article also does not acknowledge that people like me exist. I am currently being trained in my local church for ministry before entering Seminary. I also plan to as most Seminarians do serve in a local church (paid or unpaid) during my time in Seminary.
One of the statements that made me extremely mad was Steve’s comment that Seminaries don’t produce Shepherds they produce students! Isn’t that a lot like saying Med schools don’t produce Doctors they produce biology majors! Argh! That statement may be true of some but it was so broad and sweeping its an injustice to just through out like that. Secondly, OH NO my Pastor is a student of the word! Man he doesn’t know how to do anything but study the Bible! I hope all Pastors are students. Some of the Pastors I admire most are students. I hope the day I stop being a student is the day I die.
Seminaries are not outside the sphere of the local church either! Seriously think about who is staffing and attending them? Probably local church members! Also if you are Southern Baptist you can not become vocational minister without the support of a local church. For me to go to Seminary my Church voted on whether they saw God’s call in my life. If they didn’t I couldn’t go! So again its not like some individual who just wants to make career out of church can just go to Seminary get a piece paper and find job in a church. To go to a Southern Baptist Seminary the church has to affirm it. How did my church know they can affirm my call by my involvement in my local church! Look at what says at Southern Seminary’s
http://www.sbts.edu/admissions/welcome.php
Steve also makes a totally irrelevant point that a lot of heresies come from Seminaries. Well lets just through out the baby with the bath water then! So that means in the early church before there were Seminaries there were no heresies?!?! Nope! What Seminary did the Judiazers that plagued the Galatian Church come from?!!! Unsaved and or spiritually malnourished people who don’t follow the Bible bring heresies whether they come from a Seminary or local church. That is the same logic that says hey since there are so many people who have been killed in the name of “Religion” I am going to be an atheist!
Lastly, Steve rightly points out that the local church should be involved in the training of person preparing for vocational ministry. This I think say s more about the local church then it does Seminaries! It’s because Churches are not training not because the Seminaries are taking ministry candidate away from churches. Think about it practically how many Pastors do you know who are working 55 + hours also have time to train people in Greek, Hebrew, Homiletics, Bible Survey, Hermeneutics. The Pastor obviously should be equipping the saints but that doesn’t mean that church can not use Seminaries as tool to train other does it? No. Does it mean its wrong for local churches to work together in the form Seminaries to train people? No. That’s why churches support Seminaries to use as tool to train people called for ministry. Think of a Seminary that way and there is no problem. Should we not go to retreats because it’s the Church’s job to make spiritual impact? Does the Church have no available tools to it other than things it fit under its roof?
Right now I am loving my internship and being trained in a local church. As much as I love it I am still very excited about going to Seminary where I can learn under lot professors who served in local churches and where I can learn things that are not available at my local church. Anyway those are some on thought’s on camps article they are kinda random and unorganized. But I hope its helps point out where the article was one sided and extreme.
-John
John, as usual you speak with passion and conviction. Steve's article was extreme... as he usually is to be provocative. He obviously provoked you...
I agree with much of what you are saying. However, you are also speaking from a limited knowledge. Steve's audience is much larger than people like you and I who are committed to our local church and under the authoritative accountability of our local church already. There are very few seminaries like Southern. Dr. Mohler understands the priority of the local church. Most seminaries, like most (certainly not all) parachurch organizations - like camps, mission agencies, relief organizations, etc - function completely outside the scope and accountability of the local church. They believe they are the "Saviours" of a dying organization. You and I both worked at an organization whose leadership frequently alluded to the fact it could do far more than the church ever could. Those are the kind of statements that flow from a mind that runs competition to a church, not a mind that sees itself as an arm of the church and accountable to the church.
I haven't fleshed this all out yet. But this has probably been the biggest struggle of practical theology that I have dealt with (namely the role of parachurch organizations and their relationship to the local church). I began asking these questions when I worked at camp in high school and continue to ask them today.
I appreciate your thoughts.
Grace to You!
It has been some time since I have struggled with this topic and to be honest it has been a long time since I struggled with any Biblical topic. I think that Steve makes several great points about the role of seminary.
I think that this topic goes back to our local churches. The Seminaries has gotten to this point because our churches has let them. Church are willing to hand off many of their duties that Christ has given. Some are willing to wait until Promise Keepers are in Town to work with the men in their church. This is only on example of many. We can see it with women’s ministries, evangelism, and the youth.
I think the big problem is that we have professionalized the pastorate. Some churches are requiring degrees and specialties in order for men to be “Called” to a church. First, the church needs to get back in training people in our local churches for full time ministry. Secondly, the church needs to be involved in the training and help oversee the ministries that the students are involved in while at school. Find out what they are learning and help guide them while they are there. Finally, get back to calling men of the faith to the pastorate and not looking for degrees.
I am still enrolled in Seminary. I do not think that it is an evil thing. It is a great place to be trained but needs to coincide with your local church ministry.
I agree that seminary is not "an evil thing." In fact, I wish I had money to pursue a seminary education. But the onus is on the local church. Churches should be recognizing the call of God in the lives of their people, then overseeing the equipping process - likely, using seminaries in the process. But the church oversees and encourages the pastor-to-be throughout. Seminaries should not have to "require" local church involvement, they should allow, expect, even require, the sending church of the seminarian to see to it that the student gets the real work education.
Anyway... I'm still thinking... keep commenting!
Grace!
First Baptist in New Philadelphia,Ohio has its own training for pastors, missionaries, etc. and have eschewed Bible college or seminary training for quite a while. They cited all of the things Camp did.
My first reaction was exactly like John's... that they were very extreme and that they were throwing the baby out with the bath water. However, even extremists sometimes have points worth considering.
I have 3 degrees and 8 years post-secondary education. I think those years are invaluable, so I have a basic problem with down-playing education, but I admit that spiritual ministry is in a unique genre than other pursuits.
The bottom line is that when I attended Liberty, I was taught by Harold Wilmington, Norm Geisler, Ed Hindson, and many other great minds. I heard most of the "greats" preach or teach while I was there. I got to hear Francis Schaefer (sp?) and similar thinkers. Those types of teachers will not be found in a training course at 1st B or any other church-based training approach, and that is the primary weakness of church-based training - a lack of a centralized collection of numerous good minds with diverse experiences.
Can a church do it? Sure, if that's what they want. I don't think anyone is going to stop them, and I'm sure that many fine ministry people have been trained that way. But I am also sure, because I've met them, that there are those who are trained in that situation who can't think critically, and cannot write and speak the English language in a way that is the most effective.
Peter was a fisherman. Paul was a teacher of the law. Peter had a great ministry and impact, but Paul's was broader and more far-reaching. I think that is what formal training does, and that is why I feel that one should not dismiss it out of hand.
Certainly a hybrid of the two sides would be my suggestion. A seminary that works closely with local churches to get the maximum benefit of the positives that both have to offer.
I had a friend of mine who was an elder who discussed things as this as well. He had lots of good thoughts on the topics. I would love to discuss it with him again sometime.
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